"THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE BOYS! THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF IT!"

[behindthec]

cut for hugeness, polls, brainstorming, recs, etc.



a few recs:

http://dys-topia.livejournal.com/4819.html
SHE WROTE IT!!!!!!!!! *dances* don't ask me why i like this pairing; it is too complex to explain. HOWEVER, everyone must write it now, in order to win my eternal love. please please please please please??

http://emmuzka.livejournal.com/296825.html
this is really disturbing, but amazing. read the warnings. i would LOVE a sequel.

http://community.livejournal.com/diedandreborn/46037.html
utterly delicious. oh god. more of this forever. sleepysex with top!ryan is my favourite. nnngggghh.

random, but BEST MOTHERFUCKING ICON EVER. the_randomist... ily.

also totally random, but something popped up in my gmail ads yesterday and it took me a moment to figure out why, and it's because the following line is in chapter 8 (i write all fic in gmail drafts): "Brendon steps outside, out the glass doors and down the path, past the hammock until his bare feet meet sun-warmed wood." HERE IS THE SCREENSHOT:



can't stop laughing, omfg!

so, okay. i really wish people wouldn't go anon just to tell me something they think i don't want to hear. (exception being when i know who you are but for privacy reasons you go anon to say something; that's FINE). if you go anon just to say something you're afraid to say logged in (said exception aside), dude, i'm not going to dislike you for expressing your opinion, especially when it's done nicely. i respect all opinions expressed maturely and politely. i don't care what you say to me; i have no idea who you are; even non-anon you're still just an icon and a username. we're all open and friendly here. don't be afraid.

i hate how so many people here seem to be (and often admit to once being) intimidated by me. what the hell is so off-putting about me? i talk to everyone. i answer every comment, message, and email (eventually). i hold open house posts for lurkers, where i've made some of my best friends. how am i intimidating? i don't get it. :(

i also i wanted to reply publicly to that comment about biting off more than i can chew, fic-wise, to explain how i write. first off, i am not planning on writing all these fics at once. :P i'll be choosing one, and the others will be put on hold. the way i work is, i have to write whatever fic i am obsessed with at the time. so i may have tons of ideas and planned-out fics in my mind, but when i actually sit down and commit to something, it has to be what i'm excited/obsessed/passionate about at that given moment; once i actually start writing it, i generally stay obsessed till i finish. this is why i so rarely take prompts or requests, and when i do, i make a huge prompt post and pick the one i connect with most. i have to really *want* to write the fic; i can't write based on what you guys want or when. for it to turn out well, it has to be what i want, when i want it. that sounds so selfish, but that's the only way it works. otherwise i won't enjoy it, and the quality will suffer. make sense?

also, the reason i'm so excited about this fic is because it would be my first real AU, and you know i've always been very meh about AUs in the past b/c they don't feel real to me, and i'm big on canon. but canon is stressing me out too much lately; i'm too attached to it, too affected by it, too dependent on it; i think it would be really emotionally healthy for me to write something that i have complete control over; where it doesn't matter if ryan's doing coke IRL or brendon has a girlfriend. plus i think it's a very important transitional step for me to take if i ever want to write original fiction someday, which i do. plus it's just indulgent and FUN, and i want fic to be fun again.

so, there's my reasoning.

moving on! okay, so clearly, there are as many people for kilts as against them. i personally still find them kind of ridiculous, though the fact that someone mentioned they were generally worn without underwear is a definite plus. idk. what do you think? feel free to post photographic support for your opinion in the comments, otherwise i'm going with no.

[Poll #1384130]

i could always set this in ireland too, considering i have a much stronger mental memory of irish accents than i do scottish (and i even PREFER irish accents). We went with scottish b/c sara had heard that ryan is part scottish, and we know brendon is, but… idk, i could definitely go irish. thoughts?

[Poll #1384131]

also, bagpipes are out; i just went with them initially 'cause it was obvious. :P pianos, so much sexier than bagpipes. also, my first historical request: what other instruments were there in late 19th century scotland? anything guitar-esque? AUs are much easier for me to swallow (lol) if they maintain the basic canon of the characters being musicians. i want ryan to play something. also, i have some ideas for what to do with jon and spence and other bandom peeps, but if you have thoughts for them, let's hear it. i'm considering a side of joncer, maybe. idk. kinda cliche.

last night before bed my brain developed about 2k worth of dialogue for this fic, which is. a very good or very bad thing. some more brainstorming with soph last night:

Sophie: me: AND BY "THE WORLD" HE MEANS "MY DICK"
Sophie: WELL YES
lols
me: YESSSSS :D
or maybe oh god
5:11 PM
maybe he and brendon had this adorable ~courtship before
and they ksised and stuff
but never actually had sex
and before they could, ryan was sold as a slave!
Sophie: awww
me: so when they meet up again years later, they get to have their first time!
Sophie: i think they should flirt
me: total epic faily flirting
Sophie: def
me: brenodn can bring him fucking FLOWERS and stuff
5:12 PM
Sophie: omgggggg
and Ryan's all blushy and Idk-what-to-do-with-this-affection
me: i knowwwwww
Sophie: but also smiley
me: and they have to run off to the park at night to be alone, 'cause, ryan's dad
5:13 PM
Sophie: yess
and pls bden has to hrow pebbles at ryan's window
me: OF COURSE.
and climb the tree to his window while wearing his kilt :D
Sophie: AND RYAN CLIMBS DOWN AND IS FAILY AND BDEN HAS TO CATCH HIM
me: YES!!!!
5:14 PM
and they are all tangled and blushy on the ground
Sophie: like in the making of that green gentleman video
me: :LSKEJR:LIEFE YES!!!!!
that gif makes my life
Sophie: and bden's just like eeeeeeeee, I caught a ryro
gif?
i has no gif
just the dvd lol
me: EEEEEEE
oh, well, gifs of it have been made lol
5:15 PM
Sophie: well. yes
AND THE MOON IS OUT. AND RYAN IS PRETTY. AND BRENDON IS LIKE "... you're pretty"
5:16 PM
and it is cold so he has to give ryan is coat
except then ryan is a girl
lol
i fail at making them boys
me: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
THEY DONT' HAVE TO BE BOYS IN THIS
THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF IT
Sophie: YESSSSSS \o/
5:17 PM
maybe they should nearly kiss but then Ryan sez he has to go home
and Bden thinks they can ~nxt time
and then Ryan gets made a sex slave
me: AWWWWWWWWWWWW
ASKLERJAOFAPO3I
nooooo!!!
they have to have one kiss!!!
5:18 PM
Sophie: hahaha
fiiiiine
is your fic
lol
me: ONE KISS
BEFORE YEARS OF MISERY
come on
i just need to figure out how he gets all ~stolen. or if his father ends up broke and actually sells him. :/
5:19 PM
Sophie: HAHA I SEX OK
UM. SEZ
me: HAHAHAHA
you sex okay
Sophie: i do ok
i thinks he gets sold :/
me: i knowwww ugh
5:20 PM
Sophie: which is like. gah.
me: i KNOW
Sophie: and can Bden get pissed at his dad?
or something?
me: yeah, totally
i see his dad eventually committing suicide though
once he realizes what he's done
maybe he was drunk when he sold him
Sophie: yeah
makes sense. in a morbid way
me: UGH POOR RYAN
5:21 PM
Sophie: why are we writing such depressing aus?
me: I DON'T KNOW
Sophie: they are aus. WE COULD HAVE UNICORNS
me: KIK!!!!!
er, LOL!!!
Sophie: lolol
me: YES
BRENODN RESCUES RYAN ON A UNICORN
LIKE IN PRIZONER OF AZKABAN
prisoner, even
Sophie: OMG YES
me: AND ITS NAME IS SPARKLES
Sophie: omg lol
5:22 PM
:D
okay. srs bsnss

*headdesk* that last bit was a joke. most of this is a joke. :P

what i wanted is for them to have a kiss (or maybe sex, once), and then the next day ryan is sold into slavery. brendon is present for it all, he's hanging onto the bars on the back of the carriage where ryan is locked in, their fingers overlapping as brendon promises him, "i'll come for you, i promise." and such begins the Quest.

also, thoughts for what ryan's dad's shop is? what kind of business? i have some ideas for how ry and bden meet; i think ryan sees him around a few times before, gets caught staring, etc., and then he finally runs into him (literally, b/c, cute) in the marketplace one day. and is utterly faily and shy and ends up running off. but bden just smiles after him because he's all hearteyes and stuff. ugh, so many ideas swarming in my head. all i want to do is sit and write them down all day, and instead i have to work. :(

i will jot down this one moment i don't want to forget. ryan and brendon sneak off during one point in their faily ~courtship and spend the afternoon by the river or something, sprawled on their backs watching the sun, and the subject of death comes up, and ryan talks about how you have to live each moment, b/c you could die the next (in typical melodramatic, morbid ross fashion :P), and bden's kinda quiet... and that night is the night he throws pebbles at ryan's window in the middle of the night (\o/!), and ryan opens up and lets him in (AHEM) and he's like wtf are you doing here dumbass, my dad will ACTUALLY MURDER YOU if he finds out. and bden just crowds him against the wall, breathless, their foreheads touching, hands joined, and says, "i know, i know, i just couldn't, what if we died and i'd never told you?" and ry's like, "told me what?" and bren says, "that i love you," like it's the most obvious thing in the world, and kisses him. UGH MY HEART. i really, really want them to have sex that one night, and then the next day ryan gets taken. :'( but, i also love the idea of them having their First Time years later... y'know... um... after ryan's been a SEX SLAVE for however many years, so, okay, maybe not. :P though, bden could teach him how sex is ~beautiful. *eyeroll* clicheeeeeeeeeee, ack! thoughts?

sigh. my brain. my life. enough of this nonsense.

Comments

[lolab.livejournal.com]

yeah, maybe you can help me work out the whole debt details, i have no idea how that stuff works. :P don't they usually take... possessions, rather than... offspring? LOL

i actually read The Dead! but... i don't remember it. :P lol

no kilts. :D

thank god there's money in it, 'cause he has to be rich enough to buy ryan for a night later on, and be treated like a king by ryan's ~boss.

someone suggested harp or dulcimer for ryan, which, just, YES. HIS FINGERS, ON A HARP? INSTANT ORGASM.

yeah, the teaching about sex is just, ugh. i'll go to you for advice then too. :) i want it realistic and uncliche, so.

yay vampirefic!!!!! will check email in morning. <3

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

First - RYAN. HARP. YEEEEESSSS. Orgasm. Awesome.

Now...Yeah. Lmao. The thing is, for slavefic to work at all, you have to take artistic license. Realistically, little Scottish boys were not being kidnapped and sold as sex slaves in the 19th century. Sex slaves tend to come from impoverished families in eastern Europe, which is tragic, but isn't terribly helpful for fic :P Fudging has to be done for the plot to work at all. There are places where reality is simpler to work around than others. This part's relatively simple, 'cause you just say he's in a fuckload of debt, doesn't own his business, doesn't own their flat, and his possessions won't pay it. You still had essentially indentured servitude in impoverished Ireland (lots) and I imagine Scotland, and hell, there probably was debt slavery in the underground/black market. It's the *sex* slavery for *boys* that's an issue, but leave that part out at the beginning. It's easier to sell once you take it away from the 'safe, home, normal' setting. More on that at the bottom (this is a stupidly long rambling comment :P). Brendon in the beginning is going to have to be *completely* broke (like, familyless and apprenticing unpaid in piano-building to a horrible person who won't lend him a cent), because whoever seizes Ryan for debt payment in Scotland is not going to be asking much for a scrawny Scottish kid with limited apparent uses. That's fun anyway though, lmao.

Where it gets a little more complicated/fun :P with the history-fudging is the Paris part, 'cause slavery wasn't legal in 19th century Paris (though you could make it so in the AU, that's always an option). My pick would prob be the paying off the police version, where the people in charge are paying off the police to turn a blind eye, and the slaves are prevented from running away themselves/declaring the truth on stage (because there's on-stageness involved here, yeah?) by a combination/selection of straightforward slaveficcy 'boys in chains' (*head hurts from slavefic* :P) or locked doors and armed guards and guns and beatings and etc. Then Ryan can't run away 'cause there's chains and/or guns and people who'll kill him, and Brendon can't just go to the police and say, um, hey - 'cause they'll call up the bad guys on the way there and give them warning to hide everything.

And then that can go a couple of ways too, you can have Ryan warn Brendon of this so he doesn't even try the police, just goes straight to the attempting to buy then attempting to rescue, or you can go the more masochistic Brendon tries the police and the police tell the bad guys and Ryan is spirited away/punished/both and angst ensues...

It's all fairly silly in terms of plot device XD, but slavefic's like that, lol :D But yeah, my bet for plot workings would be:

...in the next comment, 'cause my comment won't fit. LMAO.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

So. New comment XD My bet for plot workings would be (and obv. this is only one way of doing it, completely off the top of my head, and it could be done a million different ways):

Ryan's dad doesn't own his business or flat, has huge gambling and drinking debt, the shady lawless underground who've lent him gambling/drinking money take all his possessions and his little dog too :P i.e. seize Ryan and cart him off while Brendon falls to pieces 'cause he owns nothing and can't borrow enough to free him.

They cart Ryan either to London or to the continent (or to wherever else you want), where it'll be easier to sell him, and at some point someone somehow looks at him and thinks scrawny Scottish Ryan would make a good sex slave. Oh, oh, or, actually, EXCELLENT, you could totally use the whole performing thing you have going, and have him actually be picked up by the Parisian asshole (who owns the brothel/cabaret) or his henchmen because he plays harp and sings and whatever and is tolerably pretty and going cheap, so they just plan to use him for the show and who knows what else, but then once they get him there (or once they buy him, or...) and clean him up, they're like oh, wait, you're more than tolerably pretty...and badness ensues. That'd make the sex slave part make waaaay more sense. So he ends up enslaved in a Parisian brothel. He can't escape because there's guards and/or chains, etc, and one day Brendon sees him onstage (where he is prevented from saying anything by the ever-present threat of violence). Brendon has to know the truth, and unable to find out any other way, buys a night, all the stuff you said about being fabulously rich and being treated like a king by the dickhead owner and etc. There is aaaaangst and lots and lots of lack of trust and trauma victimness and stuff, but Brendon manages to get the truth out of Ryan. He wants to march right out of there with him, but Ryan points out/bitterly laughs while refusing to trust Brendon an inch depending on desired levels of angst XD that they're both scrawny Scottish kids and cannot overpower armed guards. Or is traumatised and says he won't go with him. Or any number of other things. Angst. Then Brendon tries to buy him, and can't, because the guy won't sell. And there's more angst about that (incl. possibly from Ryan that Brendon's trying to *buy* him at all). Then Brendon wants to go to the police, and either Ryan stops him, or he does, and shit happens as rambled about above, etc, because the police tip off the brothel owner, and.... There is lots of angst. Eventually, rescue is somehow effected, and then you're up to the recovery and comfort and eventual sex thing, all of which is nightmarish :P Hopefully in the best possible way ;D But hard. LOTS of angst. Which I will not ramble about and make this any longer, 'cause you know :P But yeah. There’s loads and loads and loads of subplotting in all that, but it’s the subplotting that’s the angsty, less hilarious, more work part :P

Haha, that was long. I get carried away about slavefic, lol. It's one of the absolute most interesting parts of ficdom to me. I *want* this fic now, lol. What have you done to me? :P
Anyway, so I am clearly enthused ;D Hope that was mildly helpful in some way!

[lolab.livejournal.com]

YAY THANK YOU. YOU MADE IT ALL MAKE SENSE FOR ME. yeah, i was analyzing how ryan's reaction would be to seeing brendon... i mean, this is somewhere between 4-8 years since he was captured. he'd barely even RECOGNIZE him, i feel like he's blocked out so much of his past, and he's had hope and positive memories all but squashed out of him. however, i don't know that i want ryan to be this timid broken listless thing. maybe he's using his enslavement to his advantage; he's GOOD at what he does, he's gained confidence over the years, gone from weak and pitiful to strong and intimidating. he's a very confident performer (on stage and in bed); very jaded and bitter but very strong; maybe he has plans in the back of his mind to escape someday. there's this intense, haughty sort of anger. idk if that would work though. i'm not really sure what kind of person i see him as after all these years/experiences. thoughts?

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Yes.

Yeeeeeeesssss.

That will make it so, so, so much better.

I'm going to go right ahead and just brainstorm here, and just ignore or don't whatever bits you want, lol. So Ryan is captured. He fights initially, tries to escape and gets nowhere, and then just refuses, fights, won't do as he's told and won't submit and won't become this thing, won't be owned and won't pretend and won't be good. His fighting is dealt with, and when he continues to fight it's dealt with more harshly, until finally he is treated harshly enough, whether that's violence or deprivation, and made to submit. That can be punished until he does as he's told, or just raped when he won't submit until he doesn't fight anymore. And eventually, he doesn't fight anymore. Eventually, there's no point fighting anymore. The funny thing, when that point comes, is that Ryan thinks he's broken; thinks he must be, to give in; but the violence or whatever else that makes him submit isn't what crushes him; it's the submitting that crushes him. When he finally gives in and submits, that's what breaks him. And so time passes. All hope and all love and everything of the person he was slowly disappears. Everything that is good is gone. And as time passes, as the memories and the loneliness and the loss and the pain and the past that are his weaknesses, the memory of being something more than this disappears, Ryan becomes strong again. Ryan's good, Ryan knows he's good, and Ryan uses it. Ryan climbs the ladder. Ryan is better than good, he's better than just obedient, he's the best in the joint, and he brings in a fortune, and he gets treated accordingly. He hates it. He hates every second of it. But if it's between being this - disgusting himself but having some power, some ability to bargain, and the alternative, trying to fight, trying to not be this and ending up broken and helpless and with nothing...and so Ryan does what he has to, is what he has to be, to get some power. By the time Brendon shows up, Ryan is strong. Ryan is haughty, cold, intimidating as fuck unless you're paying, and you're paying a lot.

And so when Brendon shows up, Ryan isn't the person he knew. Ryan is more jaded and more bitter and more angry than just words and faces. Ryan is no longer capable of trust, let alone love, let alone softness. Ryan believes in nothing. And when Brendon shows up and says he's here for the kid he was in love with and not what everyone else is, Ryan isn't capable of believing that any more than he can believe any other goodness or hope or honesty in the world. And that's what Brendon has to contend with.

I like the phrases you used...very jaded and bitter but very strong; maybe he has plans in the back of his mind to escape someday. there's this intense, haughty sort of anger.

Lol, so ignore the other rambling comments, I wasn't clear on where you were going with this. This, I think, would be awesome.

[lolab.livejournal.com]

YOU JUST SUMMARIZED MY FIC AND GAVE ME CHILLS.

HOLY FUCK, YES.

WANT TO WRITE IT WITH ME? :D

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Serious question or not? :P

[lolab.livejournal.com]

totes serious.

tho, i know you're working on a bunch of other things... if you'd prefer to just continue to sit here and plot my fic and tell me what to write and how, you'd still get author credit for that too. :D

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Going to bed so I don't pass out at work tomorrow, lol, but yeah, dude, if you want a cowriter, I'd love to, or I'd have equally much fun just reading it :D Definitely up for jumping in on it if you want, though. Your call :D

[lolab.livejournal.com]

yeah, i could go for it. i feel it might be overwhelming on my own. and you like, KNOW HOW TO DO THIS. and i think our styles would flow really well together.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Oh god I am not going to go to bed at all, lmao.

Your brain is turning it into Spyro :P Okay, I can see a couple of ways the Spencer thing could work...

1. What if it comes after Brendon comes back? 'Cause I worry that if Ryan's had this semi-positive (well, not as bad) experience in the middle and fallen for Spencer and is pining after him, then it lessens the dramatic impact when Brendon comes back. So the rescue fails and Brendon is captured as well. Ryan is not happy about this. Ryan gave in years ago, but that was only him, that wasn't...and there's nothing he won't do to save Brendon from this. Ryan is fighting again. Ryan fights, and keeps fighting, and won't work, and says he won't work until they let Brendon go, and nothing they do to him can move him. They can't just let Brendon go, he'll go tell everyone they kidnapped him, so Ryan is useless to them now...and so they sell him off for a crapload of money (and possibly Brendon too, lol, you could have them sold together, or have them separated) to Spencer's dad. Enter your whole Spencer scenario. As my brain immediately jumps to gsf XD Dear god. Lmao.

2. OR, if you wanted it before, you could have it quite early on that it happens, so Ryan's still fragile and broken, and he almost, sort of begins to heal living with Spencer. He remembers himself--remembers the person he was--remembers Brendon, and goodness, and hope. With Spencer, he almost finds himself again. And then Spencer's father sells him on, and he's abused and trampled and torn to pieces, and it's so much worse because he'd almost hoped again, and that just breaks him and burns him away more than ever. He'll never heal by the time Brendon finds him, because the one time he let himself almost try, it destroyed him, and everything was snatched away back into the dark.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

I like number 2, actually. It kind of gives a little light and shade and texture to the eight years. 1 could be really cool, but I feel like it would turn into gsf XD Lol. And there has to be something fundamentally wrong with slavefic gsf, lmao. Maybe :P Hehehe. 2 could be cool though...or something else? Idk. Everything is awesome :D :D :D

[lolab.livejournal.com]

i was about to say, yeah, definitely #2, because it's not like he's going to fall in love with spencer. it's any port in a storm, y'know? they become close but it's early on so at this point he's still deeply in love with brendon, still has this hope that maybe he'll see him someday. spencer is just bff with benefits.

and i don't want them going anywhere else after brendon gets captured by the epic brothel (yeah, i'd be tempted to do gsf lol, and, dnw for this). i want them to start turning him into what ryan is, i want that angst of them trying to break him down, and just before it gets unbearable, they finally escape. y/n?

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Awesome. Yep. Sounds perfect.

Agreed, dnw gsf. Oh yes yes yes yes, I like that a lot. The angst of them trying to break him down, and the effect that has on Ryan as well, and the paaaaaaain, and getting so close to breaking point...and then somehow they escape. I don't even know. It has to be ridiculously dramatic XD Like, oh, the end of pwf :P But with even more angst.

[lolab.livejournal.com]

also, what you said about adding light/shade/texture to the years, yes. like i said, i want his journey to be multi-layered, multi-faceted. like a novel. several different homes/masters. several people he meets (jon? idk what jon is yet, i feel like maybe he works at the brothel but is trying to help them escape). several different worlds. i will need more ideas for those, besides spencer... hmm.

*uses tinhatty spyro icon anyway XD*

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Mmhm, yeah, I really like the Spyro thing now. He's not falling in love, and they don't have sex, but they do enough that there's this idea in the back of his head, hidden and crushed and trampled down almost to dust, that sex (and associated stuff) could theoretically be good, enough to make it worth trying when Brendon comes along and finally gets his trust.

Jon. Hmmmmmmmm. Well, Jon could be what finally helps them escape at the end...maybe he's been trying to help them the whole time, but it's been impossible without essentially forfeiting his own life, but seeing them at the end, seeing Brendon almost broken, seeing what Ryan would do for him, he can't let them suffer anymore, and he sacrifices his own freedom to help them escape, runs away with them, knowing he's as marked as they are now, but knowing it's worth it. And they all live happily ever after :P Idk :P

Yeah, eight years is a lot of time to fill with worlds. The first year is all sort of intro I guess, becoming a slave, etc. The second year could be the first brothel he's sold into, sold as a musician for a cheap, seedy stripshow but seen for his ~potential and... Then somehow he gets sold to Spencer's family? Then he has to get sold from there to somewhere really harsh. And from there maybe to the cabaret? Or somewhere else in between? Idk.

Crap, it's like 3, I actually need to go to bed, but totally more flaily brainstorming tomorrow! XD

[lolab.livejournal.com]

aseljkkafopaw3oa!!! you are epic! this is exactly the kind of stuff i need, thank you! yeah, i have no idea how any of this works, and i want to keep it at least relatively realistic. you're awesome, thanks.

my thing was going to be, brendon sees ryan on stage (he's in town on business and maybe the ppl he's reluctantly meeting with drag him to this place; like how sleazy businessmen meet at strip clubs nowadays :P). he's all, aslkjfoawjp, so he goes to ryan's ~boss/master? (haven't figured out what ryan actually IS yet; slave, courtesan, what are the rules? b/c he's treated decently at this place, but he still has to be enslaved somehow) and is like, him, i want him for the night. so he gets ryan for the night just so he can be like LOOK HERE I AM, and the next morning he tells ryan's ~boss, "i want to buy him," but the guy (pete :P) won't sell. ryan's too good for business. so then brendon plans the heist lol, only, he ends up getting captured too.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

OMG Brendon ends up captured too XD Lmao. Excellent. Awesome.

Okay, I'm going to flip around the order of this comment and cutpaste my conclusions up to the start then all the questions behind them, 'cause it came out long and rambling and exceeded comment length again XD

The answer I see as most logical/workable to he's treated decently at this place, but he still has to be enslaved somehow would be he's treated well now because he doesn't fight anymore, but he's enslaved by the knowledge that if he did try to fight, he would be reminded why he submitted in the first place, and the place's security is too good for him to ever escape.

Don't think first about the timeframe when Brendon shows up - think about the timeframe when Ryan is first brought to Paris.

What does Ryan do/say the first time he's told 'hey innocent kid who's never had sex, you're going to work as an expensive piece of ass in this brothel and you're not going to argue'? He has to fight, and he has to be forced to submit (or you have Ryan willingly becoming a prostitute, which kills your romantic storyline :P). By the time Brendon comes along he can be treated however well you like, especially if he's sort of meant to be expensive and high class and whatever, but there has to be this dark presence in the background. The fact that it's forced is important.

You need to know exactly what he's being made to do, and how he's been made to do it. I think it could be hard to pull the place off without some past element of violence or the threat of it. You don't have to have Ryan being beaten up all the time or anything, but I think it will make a lot more sense if there was violence at some point early on.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Okay, now the rambling considerations behind that, lol. This is much less coherent than the first part :P

The most important question would be - is he having sex with people against his will or not? That's sort of the basic question. Is this a sex slave fic. If the answer's yes, then you can still work with a sort of 'treated well so long as you behave' thing and say he's long since stopped fighting.

If not, you're dealing with a whole different kettle of fish (like, a whole let less angst, for a start :P). I'm not sure how that would work with the whole buying him for a night thing, though. That pretty much suggests he's a prostitute. Which almost has to be in an enslaved, unwilling way...unless you write like a crazy Stockholm Syndrome thing, which could be interesting, but really, really hard. An option, though. A really, really complicated option XD

Assuming he is having sex with people, though (that is to say, to get it clear, being repeatedly raped on a regular basis), since that seems to be where it's going...? Then given that slavery's not legal, he has to be kept there by either violence, the threat of it, or the threat of *something* else. It doesn't have to exist in the timeframe Brendon comes into; you can just make it there's a bunch of big burly guards, so Ryan could *try* to escape, sure, but there's no point, so he's stopped trying. You still need the threat of *something* to make him do the sex slave thing, though. He's not going to have sex with these people unless he's being made to in some way. If you want to avoid violence/past violence...I don't know. Food deprivation's an option, but is kind of just as bad...there has to be *something*. Otherwise you've got Ryan voluntarily up and becoming a prostitute, which kind of kills your dramatic plot :P So. Treated well, yes, but there has to be some kind of privation he was put through when he was first taken and refused to do it, and it's the threat of that that keeps him in line.

The above is why casting fic characters as the 'master' figure makes me nervous, lol. If you're happy for Pete to be the 'bad guy', then it's cool, easy. If you don't want him to be the bad guy, you're going to have to do something weird with the power structure/info flow for Pete to be in charge and not be a villain enslaving Ryan and forcing him to have sex with people for money. But yeah, casting Pete as the bad guy is fine, you just need to be aware you're doing it and actually write him as the antagonist, or you end up with the 'but he's really an awesome cool person who other characters adore even though he's selling rape and that's all good' that makes a lot of slavefic soooo cringeworthy.

- I LOVE THAT BRENDON GETS CAPTURED TOO XD I have no idea how it'll work, but it sounds hilarious XD Even though it's probably not, lol :P

- Oh, that has to be taken into account with the 'nature of the establishment' as well. If Brendon's being captured, then this is going to have to be considerably black market and shady beneath the veneer of the stage show - it's not just buying existing slaves, it's kidnapping wealthy young guys who piss them off and forcing them into slavery. That adds another element to the dynamic.

I think I've repeated myself like 13 times now, but 'what Ryan is'
is a really important element to have down, 'cause it'll shape everything else about the story from when he's taken on. You need to know exactly what he's being made to do, and how he's been made to do it.

I hope I don't sound really negative :S I don't mean any of it negatively, I think this is going to be completely madcore. It's just *so* easy to screw slavefic up. And I really want this to be awesome XD Hehehe. But yeah. Main thoughts up top, lol. One day I'll learn to be succinct :S

[lolab.livejournal.com]

no, right, this is exactly what i need. i've only read maybe 3 slavefics, but you're right, they gloss over so much and so many things are "cringeworthy" and that's what i want to avoid.

the thing is, i didn't see ryan going into the high-class brothel/cabaret place until much later. i want him to be sort of sold around for a couple years, give him a real Journey, y'know (you know me, cinematic to the bitter end), have him be just a regular dirty slave for awhile. one of the places he ends up at, he meets spencer. somewhere else, maybe he meets jon. or pete. idk. i want him to have a whole slew of experiences.

i'm not sold on pete as the bad guy. it's just the obvious choice. i'd rather use someone else, not even necessarily a bandom person. just make him an original character. idk. i don't know how much of a role i want him to have yet.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

Oh please please make the bad guy an original character then? :D *puppy dog eyes* Then you can be straightforward about the fact that Ryan has been enslaved and raped and it's horrible, and not be trying to dance around excuses for it.

Oh right, awesome. Yep, k, so on the trajectory I was talking about in the comment I just wrote, the broken stage, the violence, the breaking and the initial submission and then the slow change, the disappearance of who he was and his weaknesses, his rebirth as this proudly self-loathing, faithless, bitter but strong, so strong person all happens in these other places, and then it's that person, that strong, stunning, breathtakingly furious, intense person who is picked up as sort of omg yes by the cabaret and its high-class/expensive but super-shady brothel.

On cringeworthiness - slavefic turns into cringe when rape becomes eroticised. It's pretty much as simple as that. There are other bits and pieces, but 90% of the time it's one spin or another on that. When we forgive the bad guy, when we turn a relationship involving slavery and rape into a ship, when it's hot that -insert anything to do with rape/forced submission- those are the big places where slavefic slips. There are loads of reasons it happens, but it happens a *lot*, which means it can be really easy to slip into sideways. You just have to keep it in mind. I will always sound like a pretentious asshat talking about this, but it's just one of those things I feel really strongly about (it's the reason I first started writing about and researching slavefic years ago).

[lolab.livejournal.com]

yeah. i will. this is an important step for writing original fiction. so yay! i want to make him an interesting character, though. like i want you to hate him, but at the same time, find yourself wavering.

right. yes. to all. \o/!!!

re: eroticism, yes. that makes sense. i also don't want it to be one of those "so-and-so bought you for me but i'm nice, i'll never touch you like that" and then the slave comes to trust them and wants to get intimate anyway. which is sort of what i had planned for spencer (spencer's dad buys ryan for him), but i don't know that anything sexual would happen between them, so. which kind of blows. i mean, i don't want ryan's first positive sexual experience to be with brendon years later. or do i? i don't know if i want him to have some idea that, yes, this conceivably CAN be good.

[lolab.livejournal.com]

i don't know if i want him to have some idea that, yes, this conceivably CAN be good.

*meaning, i don't know if i want him to ALREADY have that idea, before he meets brendon, or if i want brendon to be the one to finally ~show him. which, again, cliche, but. intense. idk.

[j-plash.livejournal.com]

I think if the thing with Spencer happened in the early years, the second year after he was taken or something, the idea that it could be good would be crushed out of him and turned to poison by the time we get to Brendon. I think whatever way it goes, he's going to have lost that when Brendon finds him. So yeah, lol, Brendon ~shows him. Could be intense, as you say.

Idk. I think if the Spencer thing happens before he's reunited with Brendon, it would be better without *sex*. It could go the trajectory you're talking about, not planning anything but ending up there anyway, and maybe they kiss, maybe it even goes a bit (or significantly) further, they're taking it *painstakingly* slowly because obviously there are *issues*, but Ryan's trying, he's really trying to heal...and then Spencer's dad sells him, and he loses everything, and is torn apart all over again.

Hm, and then yeah, that could work well, 'cause it's crushed out of him enough that it doesn't interfere with bitterness and fury, but it would give him a reason to *try* with Brendon, rather than just deciding he's not interested in expressing feelings through sex. If he's had this minor positive sexual relationship in the past, there's a reason to *try*. That's a thought. So yeah, he could have this faint, crushed idea that it could conceivably be good, in some other universe, for people not like him.

Mmmmm.

[lolab.livejournal.com]

right, exactly. i don't really see actual sex with spencer. i'm thinking they get to the point of what i call "intimacy with orgasms," lol, lots of kissing, rubbing against each other, cuddling, eventually handjobs, maybe a BJ or something, but right at that point when ryan's starting to trust it, he gets sold. maybe spencer's dad finds out. :/ (which would work if ryan were bought for spencer's dad as opposed to spencer himself.)

it would be cool if they could run into spencer later or something, on their escape route. i just hate thinking of him only showing up once.